I only engage here bc you include yellow in your discussions, why don't you leave me alone , your arguments are patronizing to yellow when you equate them equally between what you do and
For those interested in the technical court decision that many believe has settled this matter refer to Glyka Trans, LLC v City of New York:
"[W]e agree with the Supreme Court's determination that the TLC's alleged decision to "allow black cars to pick up e-hails" did not, as a matter of law, constitute an unconstitutional taking of the petitioners' property (see Illinois Transp. Trade Assn. v City of Chicago, 839 F3d 594 [7th Cir 2016]; Minneapolis Taxi Owners Coalition, Inc. v City of Minneapolis, 572 F3d 502, 509 [8th Cir 2009]; Boston Taxi Owners Assn. v Baker, 2017 WL 354010, 2017 US Dist LEXIS 9628 [D Mass, Jan. 24, 2017, No. 16-11922-NMG]; Newark Cab Assn. v City of Newark, 235 F Supp 3d 638 [D NJ 2017]). The crux of the petitioners' claim is that the TLC's decision to "allow black cars to pick up e-hails" has diminished the value of their medallions, decreased the number of taxicab trips per day, and reduced their medallion income. However, " '[p]roperty' does not include a right to be free from competition" (Illinois Transp. Trade Assn. v City of Chicago, 839 F3d at 596). Accordingly, the TLC's decision to allow companies such as Uber to pick up passengers via a smartphone application does not interfere with a taxicab's use of its medallion or exclusive right to pick up passengers via street hail."
Any argument for or against what happened related to medallion rights (street hail vs. e-hail) has been challenged in court and the status quo today is affirmed by the courts. Basically Court of Appeals rejected medallion owner argument—holding that medallion owners do not have a guaranteed economic stake in the value of their medallions, and the regulatory changes did not breach any such implied contractual obligations.
All the more reason for medallion owners and TLC plate holders NOT to make the same mistakes of the past, fight with each other and then everyone loses! This is a political fight NO ONE can afford to lose, it's time for folks to get a lot smarter and collegial before it's too late. Fool me once...
medallions bought the right to streethail , not the how to do streethail, think about it , the how is putting up your hand or using an app, those are how , not the right itself,
You do realize this was litigated in court (see above). You do understand the concept that while your argument may or may not be valid, that it was taken to court and the court's decision becomes the law (unless, at this point, overturned by SCOTUS on appeal)? Respectfully, just want to make sure you understand this concept.
I fully understand that, and that gives you some cause, but none the less, if your sincere , legality in court comes 2nd , if what is right is right , ,
there have been countless instances in American history where the courts were on the wrong side , so the courts are not the end of the discussion, if the courts were wrong , you more or less use legality as your justification , but in order for justice to be real , your need to explain why, not just say it was legally decided , I haven't gotten that from you, how can you say an ehail is prearranged?
This case(s) has already been appealed multiple times, and the only remaining path is the U.S. Supreme Court (SCOTUS). In our system, it’s the rule of law—not “what feels right”—that governs. You know this. If the outcome had been reversed, the same legal reasoning would be used to defend it. Arguments are made, courts decide, and once they have, the law is established.
The danger comes when people refuse to accept that process. That’s when powerful interests—Waymo, Tesla, Big Tech—will step in. They excel at taking genuine frustration and weaponizing it for their own agenda, convincing people they’re fighting for justice when in fact they’re being used. That’s the wolf in sheep’s clothing—classic divide and conquer.
And that’s why this matters. Medallions do have more rights than TLC plates, but to argue that plate holders have no rights, or that their property can simply be confiscated, is not only unproductive—it’s unlawful (i.e., if taken to court, TLC plate holders would likely win). As the AV era begins, the real choice is clear: fight each other to the benefit of outsiders, or reach a middle ground that protects everyone’s stake in the future. Clearly, we're not anti-taxi medallion.
I would not ask anyone to surrender their livelihood , but I would decrease the plates slowing , outlaw the use of plates that are used as FHV’s by businesses , this really goes against the grain of what rideshare was suppose to be, a means of a car owner to make extra money ,
As those numbers of plates decrease , the income of the leftover drivers will increase and that will create a luxury class of vehicles at a price point sufficient enough to not interfere with the rights of taxis
That’s the bottom line, I believe that’s what will happen now or later
You need a rental industry. Many drivers don't have the credit to buy a car (at least at a reasonable interest rate), can't afford one-off major maintenance, collision coverage etc. We have lived that and effectively bailed out several drivers in a way where if it was their own vehicle or insurance, they would have likely entered extreme financial distress. Like the general population, some drivers are extremely responsible, others are not (or life happens and they are put in very tough situations).
Where we think a middle ground can be reached for both medallions and plates is that only x% can be corporate / business use. Do agree the majority of medallions and plates should belong to driver-owners. This gets tricky though when the driver-owner wants to quit driving / retire, are you going to force them to sell out to another driver?
I cannot give you streethail rights when you don’t have them ,this is not an industry of middle ground. Your apps wouldn’t have given us an inch if it didn’t benefit them, and don’t forget these conglomerates are not for the working man , they are for the shareholder , that’s a bigg difference
Are you asking me to voluntarily dilute my exclusive , diluting it to include only certain types “how’s” , to do a street hail
Medallions bought the right to streethail , not the how to do streethail, think about it , the how is putting up your hand or using an app, those are how , not the right itself
My apologies but the app cars don't have legitimacy to even enter the discussion , you don't own a medallion , and if you don't own a medallion your not suppose to ehail , it's like saying this is your land but you don't have a deed,
you need a license to ehail, an ehail can't be pre arranged and black cars are prearranged cars, you cannot claim to have the right to do ehails just bc you prearranged them, bc you prearrange , you still cannot do it , if it's not allowed
You can fool
Some of the people some of the time but you can't fool
Apps should not be able to use their own cars, they should be restricted to using licensed medallion cabs , I see a perfect blend of new technology , rights , value , in a yellow cab that's just as focused on ehails as putting up your hand
no response to the the reasons why you are legitamite , only that it has been decided ,
that won't carry weight going forward , unless you can claim legitimacy by reason , all laws have reasoning behind them. I waiting to know yours? I've asked many times here , why should you who haven't bought, be held to the same level or integrity as to those who bought
Going to give this a listen - obviously I’m biased towards medallion owners - only seems fair that they would be first in line. They had to pay huge amounts for the medallion in the first place (did FHV drivers have to pay anything for a TLC plate.. other than maybe $50-200 for licensing?) not sure how the licensing part works… also the move to AV might take years… 100k TLC plates were waived into existence with a fairy wand … which killed the medallion holders … I get that they ‘should’ be united now… but the medallion OGs should be set free with retirement (off of selling their medallion to Uber/ Lyft imo)
Give it a listen and afterwards would be interested to hear your thoughts. Many agree, including us, that medallions should be first in line with AVs, or basically be given more rights including grandfathering in the substantial and structural tax benefits they have vs TLC plates. If one were to really game AVs out, it’s actually creating a new licensing regime for *all* cars over time - 13,587 medallions is nowhere near enough, or frankly 100,000 TLC plates, in that paradigm. Fear is divide and conquer politics will be used by Big Tech and everyone loses.
Listened. I also tuned into a WNYC podcast that was good to get NYC’s sentiment. Waymo’s got like 2k cars in the US, a couple hundred in the major cities… I do think the medallion in the perfect system to start the process. Yeah eventually they can talk about TLC… but this is going to move slow at first. Goldman Sachs predicts 35K robotaxis in 2030… this is a slow mover (maybe Goldman is wrong and everyone is wrong about how fast it can ramp up)… but simply matching San Fran/ Austin… the medallions are there (even offline ones) to ease the transition…. And then if we get to a point where 100k AVs are needed… the steady state is to be determined… we can talk about potentially TLC plates… but the medallions should be more than enough to start the easing
Agree on the timeline you’re citing: AVs are still a 5–10+ year play in terms of major NYC market share, but the rules will be set in the next 1–5 years (we think). Medallions should absolutely have dibs on the first paid AV trips, but if medallion owners push too far, it could backfire. The 70,000+ TLC drivers and the large rental companies aren’t going away quietly, they will also want upside before being disintermediated and they will lobby for it btw.
Medallion owners would be wise to game out the politics and remember the lesson: when you get too greedy about rights, it usually ends badly. That was their mistake when Uber and Lyft arrived, they overestimated their hand instead of playing it strategically. TLC plate holders, too, would be wise to form an alliance with the medallion sector. The takeaway is this: it’s easy to see Big Tech or politicians exploiting these divisions and pitting the two groups against each other to then justify the creation of brand new TLC licensing regime for AVs.
I only engage here bc you include yellow in your discussions, why don't you leave me alone , your arguments are patronizing to yellow when you equate them equally between what you do and
the medallion rights
For those interested in the technical court decision that many believe has settled this matter refer to Glyka Trans, LLC v City of New York:
"[W]e agree with the Supreme Court's determination that the TLC's alleged decision to "allow black cars to pick up e-hails" did not, as a matter of law, constitute an unconstitutional taking of the petitioners' property (see Illinois Transp. Trade Assn. v City of Chicago, 839 F3d 594 [7th Cir 2016]; Minneapolis Taxi Owners Coalition, Inc. v City of Minneapolis, 572 F3d 502, 509 [8th Cir 2009]; Boston Taxi Owners Assn. v Baker, 2017 WL 354010, 2017 US Dist LEXIS 9628 [D Mass, Jan. 24, 2017, No. 16-11922-NMG]; Newark Cab Assn. v City of Newark, 235 F Supp 3d 638 [D NJ 2017]). The crux of the petitioners' claim is that the TLC's decision to "allow black cars to pick up e-hails" has diminished the value of their medallions, decreased the number of taxicab trips per day, and reduced their medallion income. However, " '[p]roperty' does not include a right to be free from competition" (Illinois Transp. Trade Assn. v City of Chicago, 839 F3d at 596). Accordingly, the TLC's decision to allow companies such as Uber to pick up passengers via a smartphone application does not interfere with a taxicab's use of its medallion or exclusive right to pick up passengers via street hail."
(Source: https://www.nycourts.gov/REPORTER/3dseries/2018/2018_03129.htm?utm_source)
Further case law can be found here: https://nycourts.gov/courts/appeals/Decisions/2023/Apr23/22opn23-Decision.pdf?utm_source. Only court left to appeal these decisions is US Supreme Court (SCOTUS) essentially (if they'll take it).
Any argument for or against what happened related to medallion rights (street hail vs. e-hail) has been challenged in court and the status quo today is affirmed by the courts. Basically Court of Appeals rejected medallion owner argument—holding that medallion owners do not have a guaranteed economic stake in the value of their medallions, and the regulatory changes did not breach any such implied contractual obligations.
All the more reason for medallion owners and TLC plate holders NOT to make the same mistakes of the past, fight with each other and then everyone loses! This is a political fight NO ONE can afford to lose, it's time for folks to get a lot smarter and collegial before it's too late. Fool me once...
medallions bought the right to streethail , not the how to do streethail, think about it , the how is putting up your hand or using an app, those are how , not the right itself,
You do realize this was litigated in court (see above). You do understand the concept that while your argument may or may not be valid, that it was taken to court and the court's decision becomes the law (unless, at this point, overturned by SCOTUS on appeal)? Respectfully, just want to make sure you understand this concept.
I fully understand that, and that gives you some cause, but none the less, if your sincere , legality in court comes 2nd , if what is right is right , ,
there have been countless instances in American history where the courts were on the wrong side , so the courts are not the end of the discussion, if the courts were wrong , you more or less use legality as your justification , but in order for justice to be real , your need to explain why, not just say it was legally decided , I haven't gotten that from you, how can you say an ehail is prearranged?
This case(s) has already been appealed multiple times, and the only remaining path is the U.S. Supreme Court (SCOTUS). In our system, it’s the rule of law—not “what feels right”—that governs. You know this. If the outcome had been reversed, the same legal reasoning would be used to defend it. Arguments are made, courts decide, and once they have, the law is established.
The danger comes when people refuse to accept that process. That’s when powerful interests—Waymo, Tesla, Big Tech—will step in. They excel at taking genuine frustration and weaponizing it for their own agenda, convincing people they’re fighting for justice when in fact they’re being used. That’s the wolf in sheep’s clothing—classic divide and conquer.
And that’s why this matters. Medallions do have more rights than TLC plates, but to argue that plate holders have no rights, or that their property can simply be confiscated, is not only unproductive—it’s unlawful (i.e., if taken to court, TLC plate holders would likely win). As the AV era begins, the real choice is clear: fight each other to the benefit of outsiders, or reach a middle ground that protects everyone’s stake in the future. Clearly, we're not anti-taxi medallion.
I would not ask anyone to surrender their livelihood , but I would decrease the plates slowing , outlaw the use of plates that are used as FHV’s by businesses , this really goes against the grain of what rideshare was suppose to be, a means of a car owner to make extra money ,
As those numbers of plates decrease , the income of the leftover drivers will increase and that will create a luxury class of vehicles at a price point sufficient enough to not interfere with the rights of taxis
That’s the bottom line, I believe that’s what will happen now or later
You need a rental industry. Many drivers don't have the credit to buy a car (at least at a reasonable interest rate), can't afford one-off major maintenance, collision coverage etc. We have lived that and effectively bailed out several drivers in a way where if it was their own vehicle or insurance, they would have likely entered extreme financial distress. Like the general population, some drivers are extremely responsible, others are not (or life happens and they are put in very tough situations).
Where we think a middle ground can be reached for both medallions and plates is that only x% can be corporate / business use. Do agree the majority of medallions and plates should belong to driver-owners. This gets tricky though when the driver-owner wants to quit driving / retire, are you going to force them to sell out to another driver?
We don't need a rental car industry for those without credit , just an excuse for cheating , you need legitimacy
I cannot give you streethail rights when you don’t have them ,this is not an industry of middle ground. Your apps wouldn’t have given us an inch if it didn’t benefit them, and don’t forget these conglomerates are not for the working man , they are for the shareholder , that’s a bigg difference
Are you asking me to voluntarily dilute my exclusive , diluting it to include only certain types “how’s” , to do a street hail
you cannot justify yourself by pointing to previous decisions , you must debate why those decisions were made and if they were valid
Try saying why. Not just making bullshit claims.
Whose this
Medallions bought the right to streethail , not the how to do streethail, think about it , the how is putting up your hand or using an app, those are how , not the right itself
My apologies but the app cars don't have legitimacy to even enter the discussion , you don't own a medallion , and if you don't own a medallion your not suppose to ehail , it's like saying this is your land but you don't have a deed,
you need a license to ehail, an ehail can't be pre arranged and black cars are prearranged cars, you cannot claim to have the right to do ehails just bc you prearranged them, bc you prearrange , you still cannot do it , if it's not allowed
You can fool
Some of the people some of the time but you can't fool
All of the people all the time
Apps should not be able to use their own cars, they should be restricted to using licensed medallion cabs , I see a perfect blend of new technology , rights , value , in a yellow cab that's just as focused on ehails as putting up your hand
Mike times has changed, there is an army of 106,000 for hire vehicles compared to 13,000 yellow cabs
no response to the the reasons why you are legitamite , only that it has been decided ,
that won't carry weight going forward , unless you can claim legitimacy by reason , all laws have reasoning behind them. I waiting to know yours? I've asked many times here , why should you who haven't bought, be held to the same level or integrity as to those who bought
I drove yellow for 10 years, they failed to keep up with technology and Uber came and took their place. The street hail is slowing dying like cash is.
Too many unknowns at the moment, in the meantime we are all trying to survive
Going to give this a listen - obviously I’m biased towards medallion owners - only seems fair that they would be first in line. They had to pay huge amounts for the medallion in the first place (did FHV drivers have to pay anything for a TLC plate.. other than maybe $50-200 for licensing?) not sure how the licensing part works… also the move to AV might take years… 100k TLC plates were waived into existence with a fairy wand … which killed the medallion holders … I get that they ‘should’ be united now… but the medallion OGs should be set free with retirement (off of selling their medallion to Uber/ Lyft imo)
Give it a listen and afterwards would be interested to hear your thoughts. Many agree, including us, that medallions should be first in line with AVs, or basically be given more rights including grandfathering in the substantial and structural tax benefits they have vs TLC plates. If one were to really game AVs out, it’s actually creating a new licensing regime for *all* cars over time - 13,587 medallions is nowhere near enough, or frankly 100,000 TLC plates, in that paradigm. Fear is divide and conquer politics will be used by Big Tech and everyone loses.
Listened. I also tuned into a WNYC podcast that was good to get NYC’s sentiment. Waymo’s got like 2k cars in the US, a couple hundred in the major cities… I do think the medallion in the perfect system to start the process. Yeah eventually they can talk about TLC… but this is going to move slow at first. Goldman Sachs predicts 35K robotaxis in 2030… this is a slow mover (maybe Goldman is wrong and everyone is wrong about how fast it can ramp up)… but simply matching San Fran/ Austin… the medallions are there (even offline ones) to ease the transition…. And then if we get to a point where 100k AVs are needed… the steady state is to be determined… we can talk about potentially TLC plates… but the medallions should be more than enough to start the easing
Agree on the timeline you’re citing: AVs are still a 5–10+ year play in terms of major NYC market share, but the rules will be set in the next 1–5 years (we think). Medallions should absolutely have dibs on the first paid AV trips, but if medallion owners push too far, it could backfire. The 70,000+ TLC drivers and the large rental companies aren’t going away quietly, they will also want upside before being disintermediated and they will lobby for it btw.
Medallion owners would be wise to game out the politics and remember the lesson: when you get too greedy about rights, it usually ends badly. That was their mistake when Uber and Lyft arrived, they overestimated their hand instead of playing it strategically. TLC plate holders, too, would be wise to form an alliance with the medallion sector. The takeaway is this: it’s easy to see Big Tech or politicians exploiting these divisions and pitting the two groups against each other to then justify the creation of brand new TLC licensing regime for AVs.