NYTWA Executive Director Bhairavi Desai & AutoMarketplace's Dawood Mian talk about Uber & Lyft NYC driver "lockouts". NYTWA is organizing a "march by foot" from City Hall to Uber NYC HQ next Wednesday
And yet IDG continues to trash the NYTWA despite the great efforts of the NYTWA to get back wages for drivers and have the TLC stop fighting for the expansion of EV licenses, something IDG kept pushing for. IDG is so conflicted that it borders on corruption. I donāt understand how IDG can be independently for drivers when they are funded by Uber. When the NYTWA won the back wage case IDG rode the coattails of that successful win but gave no credit to NYTWA. IDG needs to stop thinking NYTWA is a competitor and bring their forces together to help advance the causes of drivers. Lockouts, waitlists, and unjustified deactivations would be a good start.
Why Chairman Do has not eliminated the UR is anyoneās guess. He shows up at rallies spewing outrage yet HE could immediately and unilaterally get rid of it. I scratch my head over that.
No, the UR needs to go. TLC already has sole control over the supply of plates. I don't understand how UR can help the situation as long as TLC doesn't release more plates. UR isn't helping at all. Earnings are down, and every few months we get this stupid drama over a minimum wage job.
While is definitely right to leverage that the Uber Representative during TLCās hearing back on March 2023 YES they did asked for a 53% floor for UR but also for a Standalone UR (of course so Lyft can ultimately leave the NYC business) they never said āthis is a compromiseā. We shouldāve all forecasted that eventually they will continue to over hire and lockouts will happen. As far of the TLC issuing 10k new EV plates, TLC couldāve been solely blamed on creating more congestion in the city, because of the new people that entered the business because of that matter, for long time renters and leasing drivers it was OK because they were already in the business and them getting EV plates it didnāt really affect the business at all, what TLC shouldāve forecasted was that they were going to incentivize UBER and LYFT to continue to hire new drivers with EVs because at the end of the day they need to satisfy the famous āGreen Rides Initiativeā and of course this is when they got greedy. TLCās canāt say they couldāve not predicted all those EV applications, thankfully the DATA is there and back to the first 1,000 EV plates lottery TLC stated that over 20k users were on the website at the same time when the lottery opened at 10:00am of that day. BIG FAULT FROM ALL SIDES on oversaturation.
NYTWA: ā70-80% of the drivers in the Union are Uber and Lyft drivers" just like she stated and I have said before, either most or all of them were yellow cabs at some point, and thatās the reason for them advocating for these drivers donāt necessarily means they dont have a yellow cab bias. āIf Uber in its business venture, wants to Cross Dispatch to others in FHV sector, wants to have a yellow cabā Uber didnāt āWantedā to cross dispatch in fact they do not need to cross dispatch at all, that was a very nice way of justifying Yellows being on the Uber app, she knows Uber is using that loophole and is having yellow pick up a rider when they have tons of Uber drivers being lockout in the same area just so it wonāt affect their Utilization rate, I am sorry to say it but not accepting the fact it is affecting somehow the implementation of the UR and that there needs to be some workaround is whatās going to continue to make NYTWA look like they have a yellow cab bias. I do wish you guys wouldāve gotten a little more technical on that specific topic, it makes it seem like if it was their request not to go technical on that because they would have no valid argument to defend that and you guys accepted, (not saying it was like that necessarily but it can be misinterpreted and seemed like that from outside).
On one of my first comments on the platform I have said that TLC needed to drop UR floor in order to stop lockouts (just as an immediate solution due to all the mistakes made in the industry, (Wich is one of NYTWA suggestions) and if necessary rule against lockouts itself because we donāt know what other things they might come up down the road, and in the meantime work on caps on licenses and other solutions in order to create a more stable industry, but the reality is that like you have said during the video they will always try to go about seeing how laws donāt apply to them, and that sadly is going to continue to happening because they seemed to be fine woth going to court every year for many matters, the only thing App seems to respect is local regulations, like TLC rules because most of the times these donāt need to go to a court process in order to affect their pockets directly.
"I do wish you guys wouldāve gotten a little more technical on that specific topic, it makes it seem like if it was their request not to go technical on that because they would have no valid argument to defend that and you guys accepted, (not saying it was like that necessarily but it can be misinterpreted and seemed like that from outside)."
Bhairavi / NYTWA said anything was fair game and didn't request any topic not be discussed. We decided not to focus on that specific topic for a couple of reasons. Based on our, fairly lengthy, interaction in the comments section in this article (https://automarketplace.substack.com/p/nytwa-unveils-plan-to-end-driver) and our broader point that UR, the metric, should not be used to regulate the industry to begin with vs. focusing on the FHV License (TLC Plate) Cap.
We've used the term "overkill" or using UR, on top of vehicle supply cap, as basically unnecessarily complicating things that a TLC Plate Cap / taxi medallion system is already, inherently solving for. A vehicle supply cap, by definition, will help keep driver utilization high and protect driver earnings, if you will.
Yes, we *still* think yellow cabs not being subject to UR when they are available to accept Uber trips (guess technically the driver is using the Curb or Arro app, although the customer is using the Uber app mostly) is a bit of an unspoken loophole but NYTWA views it differently. For example, they will argue yellow cabs must be available for street hails as well, so you can't set a utilization rate (UR) for them to be online in an e-hail app.
Also, the data we would like to see from TLC before really exploring this topic is what % of all yellow cab trips are being dispatched by Uber. Although "Curb / Arro" is dispatching, we all know it's really Uber. However, are yellow cabs still mostly doing street hails? We can conceptually understand their argument (i.e. taxi is always "online" for street hails). We do though still think this has likely resulted in a taxis being given regulatory preference for Uber dispatches vs. other TLC regulated vehicles (i.e., taxi taking away trip share from Uber / Lyft drivers).
In our opinion, it all comes back to UR not being used in the first place, as various games and loopholes start coming into play. TLC should just focus on appropriate driver / vehicle supply controls, the utilization (UR) will take care of itself.
I understand your point of view and in many aspects I agree specifically on the fact that UR to begin with probably wasnāt the most ideal method to secure driver pay, but it was the chosen one for some reason that probably wasnāt shared publicly but it might go beyond our thinking whether it was a good method or not, who knows.
Appropriate driver/vehicle supply doesnāt get fix from one day to another in a market with oversaturation, we also have to think about the fact that is not a simple starting from scratch and everything will be fine over time, letās just bring this example to this debate (this numbers might not be accurate because I do not have that data handy) letās say in between Uber and Lyft thereās 80,000 active drivers right now which they are unable to keep busy, both combined letās say have around 10k drivers waitlisted just waiting for the green light to start driving with them, letās assume UR gets dropped and TLC does not issue a single driver or vehicle license at all, another 10k drivers will be simply added to the Apps, that would be even more disastrous than what happened with the 10k ev plates because in fact not all of them were able to join the apps. How does TLC makes sure these now 90k drivers are being kept busy and earning enough instead of all of them spending indefinite hours in order to make way less than before? Even if the hourly pay for time with passengers is increased like it has happened in other states youāll have a bunch of drivers making for Example $32 in one hour and spending another 2 hours empty because thereās too many drivers (Which i am sure that it is going to be the problem other states will face once the new regulations have attracted more and more drivers and business gets over saturated just like it is here). Demand will not magically increase exponentially and it can take years for business to go back to nornal as drivers simply leave the industry, we have to look a the solution from the fact that thereās already a UR in place not from the fact it wasnāt supposed to be in place to begin with, while keeping it the way it is might not be the most suitable decision , dropping it and and just let driver and vehicle license fix the issue over time while drivers are not making a decent living is not either, there has to be something in between, some kind of middle ground that protects drivers income, NYTWA suggestions for dropping the UR can work, but ultimately lead to the same issue happening in a few years if Apps continue to hire and this is not follow by vehicle and driver licenses caps. One thing doesnāt work without the other in the meantime industry is stuck and regulator just looses credibility.
"It was the chosen one for some reason that probably wasnāt shared publicly but it might go beyond our thinking whether it was a good method or not, who knows."
Reasons were shared publicly, it's not beyond our (or others peoples) thinking and we clearly know it's not a good method. Look what's happening - "lockouts". It's clear as day this is bad policy š¤·, what more do you need to see?
If people can't understand why policy is being created, that's not a people problem usually, that's a policy problem. However, in this instance we understand what was being solved for, "idle time" compensation that the TLC *assumed* would incentivize Uber / Lyft to not over hire AND would benefit the yellow cab industry. What caused Juno to leave the TLC market? Look back. It was actually UR. TLC couldn't foresee Uber and Lyft could easily game this system via "lockouts". We've been predicting this for 2+ years. Very easy to predict, even from the bleachers.
For the decades and decades that a UR did not exist in the TLC industry, the vehicle supply cap on the majority market share player at the time (taxi medallion system) worked to protect driver earnings.
No solution will fix oversaturation overnight, but we need start going in the right direction. In terms of other more specific ideas, make the TLC driver's license exam harder. Re. the waitlist, which vehicles are those 10,000+ drivers getting into...if all vehicles are occupied? Right now, there are 4.000+ yellow cabs that are inactive, why aren't all active?
āWhat more do you need to see?" Lol, the paragraph you responded to it was just a āconspiracy theoryā itās ok.
Those more specific ideas seems to be the only thing that TLC will be willing to do at some point which all it will do is slowing down the process of getting a license, going in the right direction canāt start with affecting drivers income to an even worst extent that what it is now, vehicles were all occupied before the 10k EV plates, have you looked at American Lease, Buggy, Fast Track and Tower garages lately, those cars dont seem to be occupied at all, they definitely have enough cars to fill up the waitlisted drivers, tlcmarketplace seems to be full of available cars to rent EV, hybrids, Wavs, Gas cars you name them,
Why arenāt those 4k+ yellow cabs active? Have you looked at the cost of renting or leasing one of those every week? For a business model thatās not attractive to drivers nowadays, eventually those will be filled as well by the very last drivers on those waitlists just because thereās no other choice and theyāll be able to use the Uber app as well or anyone that slowly gets in to the industry, once those 4k+ yellow cabs are active as well, now you are not only going to have App drivers whining about driving for hours and not making a decent living you will also have the yellow cabs doing the same, only reason why they are not probably doing so right now itās because those other 4k yellow cabs are inactive.
Agree with much. Another angle to this whole UR debate, that we've mentioned a few times, is a competition point. Remember, the UR only applies to 10,000 trip per day "HV" bases. If we are going to keep UR, that threshold needs to rise to 100,000, we think, so more competition can come in. This is why we are against UR because it creates a "whack a mole" like situation with all sorts of additional problems that the regulators haven't gamed out when they think they've solved one thing. IF UR is kept the 10,000 trip threshold needs to be raised. Also mentioned in NYTWA podcast. Thoughts?
"If the TLC and NYTWA want to keep a UR-based NYC driver minimum pay formula, our suggestion would be to raise the HV daily trip threshold to 100,000 trips. This will allow more competition to enter the market and give drivers hope that more options will arise."
Thatās right, if it is kept there need to be serious and well thought adjustments to make but also those companies trying to enter the the industry will need to work their business a bit different and hire according their demand of course with some room to play, instead of hiring in a way that once they hit the treshold they already have a supply of drivers thats only enough for the demand instead of being over saturated and face the same issues Uber and Lyft have faced in part because of their greediness. In the meantime they would be able to have more drivers than needed but will need to hire accordingly as they get closer to the treshold. At that point whoever is entering this market will need to understand that on strictly regulated markets thereās only so much money you can make sometimes (and that applies to any industry or trade out there and anyone that has ever been a business owner should know, whether it due to regulation, higher operating cost, etc). Some companies will also be comfortable and make good money being under that threshold and avoiding extra regulations.
Simple, just drive Yellow Taxis. Street hails, Airports and Uber fares = More $$$
Let's see if the data shows that. Right now, not clear but maybe in the future it will!
And yet IDG continues to trash the NYTWA despite the great efforts of the NYTWA to get back wages for drivers and have the TLC stop fighting for the expansion of EV licenses, something IDG kept pushing for. IDG is so conflicted that it borders on corruption. I donāt understand how IDG can be independently for drivers when they are funded by Uber. When the NYTWA won the back wage case IDG rode the coattails of that successful win but gave no credit to NYTWA. IDG needs to stop thinking NYTWA is a competitor and bring their forces together to help advance the causes of drivers. Lockouts, waitlists, and unjustified deactivations would be a good start.
UR needs to go TLC needs to put a cap on licenses
Cap on TLC licenses, there should be pathway for drivers renting more then 3 years to get a plate
Why Chairman Do has not eliminated the UR is anyoneās guess. He shows up at rallies spewing outrage yet HE could immediately and unilaterally get rid of it. I scratch my head over that.
To be fair what has chairman Do even done since in office apart from that ridiculous ev plate!
Yes, on UR š. Are you referring to a TLC Driver License or FHV License (TLC Plate) cap? Or both?
No, the UR needs to go. TLC already has sole control over the supply of plates. I don't understand how UR can help the situation as long as TLC doesn't release more plates. UR isn't helping at all. Earnings are down, and every few months we get this stupid drama over a minimum wage job.
While is definitely right to leverage that the Uber Representative during TLCās hearing back on March 2023 YES they did asked for a 53% floor for UR but also for a Standalone UR (of course so Lyft can ultimately leave the NYC business) they never said āthis is a compromiseā. We shouldāve all forecasted that eventually they will continue to over hire and lockouts will happen. As far of the TLC issuing 10k new EV plates, TLC couldāve been solely blamed on creating more congestion in the city, because of the new people that entered the business because of that matter, for long time renters and leasing drivers it was OK because they were already in the business and them getting EV plates it didnāt really affect the business at all, what TLC shouldāve forecasted was that they were going to incentivize UBER and LYFT to continue to hire new drivers with EVs because at the end of the day they need to satisfy the famous āGreen Rides Initiativeā and of course this is when they got greedy. TLCās canāt say they couldāve not predicted all those EV applications, thankfully the DATA is there and back to the first 1,000 EV plates lottery TLC stated that over 20k users were on the website at the same time when the lottery opened at 10:00am of that day. BIG FAULT FROM ALL SIDES on oversaturation.
NYTWA: ā70-80% of the drivers in the Union are Uber and Lyft drivers" just like she stated and I have said before, either most or all of them were yellow cabs at some point, and thatās the reason for them advocating for these drivers donāt necessarily means they dont have a yellow cab bias. āIf Uber in its business venture, wants to Cross Dispatch to others in FHV sector, wants to have a yellow cabā Uber didnāt āWantedā to cross dispatch in fact they do not need to cross dispatch at all, that was a very nice way of justifying Yellows being on the Uber app, she knows Uber is using that loophole and is having yellow pick up a rider when they have tons of Uber drivers being lockout in the same area just so it wonāt affect their Utilization rate, I am sorry to say it but not accepting the fact it is affecting somehow the implementation of the UR and that there needs to be some workaround is whatās going to continue to make NYTWA look like they have a yellow cab bias. I do wish you guys wouldāve gotten a little more technical on that specific topic, it makes it seem like if it was their request not to go technical on that because they would have no valid argument to defend that and you guys accepted, (not saying it was like that necessarily but it can be misinterpreted and seemed like that from outside).
On one of my first comments on the platform I have said that TLC needed to drop UR floor in order to stop lockouts (just as an immediate solution due to all the mistakes made in the industry, (Wich is one of NYTWA suggestions) and if necessary rule against lockouts itself because we donāt know what other things they might come up down the road, and in the meantime work on caps on licenses and other solutions in order to create a more stable industry, but the reality is that like you have said during the video they will always try to go about seeing how laws donāt apply to them, and that sadly is going to continue to happening because they seemed to be fine woth going to court every year for many matters, the only thing App seems to respect is local regulations, like TLC rules because most of the times these donāt need to go to a court process in order to affect their pockets directly.
Great commentary and thank you for sharing.
"I do wish you guys wouldāve gotten a little more technical on that specific topic, it makes it seem like if it was their request not to go technical on that because they would have no valid argument to defend that and you guys accepted, (not saying it was like that necessarily but it can be misinterpreted and seemed like that from outside)."
Bhairavi / NYTWA said anything was fair game and didn't request any topic not be discussed. We decided not to focus on that specific topic for a couple of reasons. Based on our, fairly lengthy, interaction in the comments section in this article (https://automarketplace.substack.com/p/nytwa-unveils-plan-to-end-driver) and our broader point that UR, the metric, should not be used to regulate the industry to begin with vs. focusing on the FHV License (TLC Plate) Cap.
We've used the term "overkill" or using UR, on top of vehicle supply cap, as basically unnecessarily complicating things that a TLC Plate Cap / taxi medallion system is already, inherently solving for. A vehicle supply cap, by definition, will help keep driver utilization high and protect driver earnings, if you will.
Yes, we *still* think yellow cabs not being subject to UR when they are available to accept Uber trips (guess technically the driver is using the Curb or Arro app, although the customer is using the Uber app mostly) is a bit of an unspoken loophole but NYTWA views it differently. For example, they will argue yellow cabs must be available for street hails as well, so you can't set a utilization rate (UR) for them to be online in an e-hail app.
Also, the data we would like to see from TLC before really exploring this topic is what % of all yellow cab trips are being dispatched by Uber. Although "Curb / Arro" is dispatching, we all know it's really Uber. However, are yellow cabs still mostly doing street hails? We can conceptually understand their argument (i.e. taxi is always "online" for street hails). We do though still think this has likely resulted in a taxis being given regulatory preference for Uber dispatches vs. other TLC regulated vehicles (i.e., taxi taking away trip share from Uber / Lyft drivers).
In our opinion, it all comes back to UR not being used in the first place, as various games and loopholes start coming into play. TLC should just focus on appropriate driver / vehicle supply controls, the utilization (UR) will take care of itself.
I understand your point of view and in many aspects I agree specifically on the fact that UR to begin with probably wasnāt the most ideal method to secure driver pay, but it was the chosen one for some reason that probably wasnāt shared publicly but it might go beyond our thinking whether it was a good method or not, who knows.
Appropriate driver/vehicle supply doesnāt get fix from one day to another in a market with oversaturation, we also have to think about the fact that is not a simple starting from scratch and everything will be fine over time, letās just bring this example to this debate (this numbers might not be accurate because I do not have that data handy) letās say in between Uber and Lyft thereās 80,000 active drivers right now which they are unable to keep busy, both combined letās say have around 10k drivers waitlisted just waiting for the green light to start driving with them, letās assume UR gets dropped and TLC does not issue a single driver or vehicle license at all, another 10k drivers will be simply added to the Apps, that would be even more disastrous than what happened with the 10k ev plates because in fact not all of them were able to join the apps. How does TLC makes sure these now 90k drivers are being kept busy and earning enough instead of all of them spending indefinite hours in order to make way less than before? Even if the hourly pay for time with passengers is increased like it has happened in other states youāll have a bunch of drivers making for Example $32 in one hour and spending another 2 hours empty because thereās too many drivers (Which i am sure that it is going to be the problem other states will face once the new regulations have attracted more and more drivers and business gets over saturated just like it is here). Demand will not magically increase exponentially and it can take years for business to go back to nornal as drivers simply leave the industry, we have to look a the solution from the fact that thereās already a UR in place not from the fact it wasnāt supposed to be in place to begin with, while keeping it the way it is might not be the most suitable decision , dropping it and and just let driver and vehicle license fix the issue over time while drivers are not making a decent living is not either, there has to be something in between, some kind of middle ground that protects drivers income, NYTWA suggestions for dropping the UR can work, but ultimately lead to the same issue happening in a few years if Apps continue to hire and this is not follow by vehicle and driver licenses caps. One thing doesnāt work without the other in the meantime industry is stuck and regulator just looses credibility.
"It was the chosen one for some reason that probably wasnāt shared publicly but it might go beyond our thinking whether it was a good method or not, who knows."
Reasons were shared publicly, it's not beyond our (or others peoples) thinking and we clearly know it's not a good method. Look what's happening - "lockouts". It's clear as day this is bad policy š¤·, what more do you need to see?
If people can't understand why policy is being created, that's not a people problem usually, that's a policy problem. However, in this instance we understand what was being solved for, "idle time" compensation that the TLC *assumed* would incentivize Uber / Lyft to not over hire AND would benefit the yellow cab industry. What caused Juno to leave the TLC market? Look back. It was actually UR. TLC couldn't foresee Uber and Lyft could easily game this system via "lockouts". We've been predicting this for 2+ years. Very easy to predict, even from the bleachers.
For the decades and decades that a UR did not exist in the TLC industry, the vehicle supply cap on the majority market share player at the time (taxi medallion system) worked to protect driver earnings.
No solution will fix oversaturation overnight, but we need start going in the right direction. In terms of other more specific ideas, make the TLC driver's license exam harder. Re. the waitlist, which vehicles are those 10,000+ drivers getting into...if all vehicles are occupied? Right now, there are 4.000+ yellow cabs that are inactive, why aren't all active?
āWhat more do you need to see?" Lol, the paragraph you responded to it was just a āconspiracy theoryā itās ok.
Those more specific ideas seems to be the only thing that TLC will be willing to do at some point which all it will do is slowing down the process of getting a license, going in the right direction canāt start with affecting drivers income to an even worst extent that what it is now, vehicles were all occupied before the 10k EV plates, have you looked at American Lease, Buggy, Fast Track and Tower garages lately, those cars dont seem to be occupied at all, they definitely have enough cars to fill up the waitlisted drivers, tlcmarketplace seems to be full of available cars to rent EV, hybrids, Wavs, Gas cars you name them,
Why arenāt those 4k+ yellow cabs active? Have you looked at the cost of renting or leasing one of those every week? For a business model thatās not attractive to drivers nowadays, eventually those will be filled as well by the very last drivers on those waitlists just because thereās no other choice and theyāll be able to use the Uber app as well or anyone that slowly gets in to the industry, once those 4k+ yellow cabs are active as well, now you are not only going to have App drivers whining about driving for hours and not making a decent living you will also have the yellow cabs doing the same, only reason why they are not probably doing so right now itās because those other 4k yellow cabs are inactive.
Agree with much. Another angle to this whole UR debate, that we've mentioned a few times, is a competition point. Remember, the UR only applies to 10,000 trip per day "HV" bases. If we are going to keep UR, that threshold needs to rise to 100,000, we think, so more competition can come in. This is why we are against UR because it creates a "whack a mole" like situation with all sorts of additional problems that the regulators haven't gamed out when they think they've solved one thing. IF UR is kept the 10,000 trip threshold needs to be raised. Also mentioned in NYTWA podcast. Thoughts?
"If the TLC and NYTWA want to keep a UR-based NYC driver minimum pay formula, our suggestion would be to raise the HV daily trip threshold to 100,000 trips. This will allow more competition to enter the market and give drivers hope that more options will arise."
(https://automarketplace.substack.com/p/nytwa-unveils-plan-to-end-driver)
Thatās right, if it is kept there need to be serious and well thought adjustments to make but also those companies trying to enter the the industry will need to work their business a bit different and hire according their demand of course with some room to play, instead of hiring in a way that once they hit the treshold they already have a supply of drivers thats only enough for the demand instead of being over saturated and face the same issues Uber and Lyft have faced in part because of their greediness. In the meantime they would be able to have more drivers than needed but will need to hire accordingly as they get closer to the treshold. At that point whoever is entering this market will need to understand that on strictly regulated markets thereās only so much money you can make sometimes (and that applies to any industry or trade out there and anyone that has ever been a business owner should know, whether it due to regulation, higher operating cost, etc). Some companies will also be comfortable and make good money being under that threshold and avoiding extra regulations.